Justin Moore:

June (29), 1978, Santa Fe, New Mexico, and we are having a session with Bartholomew. The first question that the woman wanted to ask pertains to the approach of Ramana Maharshi, which repeatedly encourages the questioner to ask "Who am I?" And the woman wants to know whether this is a valid type of - if you like - mantram, focus of concentration, and how it should best be used, and how you would recommend that it be used.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Well, I think that if you look carefully at everything that we have said before in these sessions, that you will find a strain there that sounds very familiar. Because basically, what the "Who am I?" approach seeks to do is to turn the questioner within to see past all of the various risings and fallings of thought, and to concentrate on the source from which they arise.

And when one waits for that source to reveal itself, that is that state that the Maharshi is talking about. In other words, the "Who am I?" done properly is this state of waiting. It's a state of turning within and waiting to experience the arising of the Source, you see. He states clearly that if you will simply reverse thinking and go back to where the I source first came, that the Source itself will reveal itself. And this is true. And so this is simply, basically, a matter of turning within, and he made it very specific, that he wants it in the heart area - only to the right for the Maharshi - and this is very valid and can be experienced that way, and this first movement into the heart and keeping one's consciousness there, you see.

We have spoken about this before, I think. And so if she would listen to the tapes or read the transcriptions, she will see that it's all pretty much covered already.

So what one does is sit there and wait. Now, it can be experienced and verbalized in many ways. It can be experienced as waiting for the Source to reveal itself, for the Self to shine forth, or for the power of God to manifest. It doesn't matter how we say it.

What we're saying is we are waiting for the blue, vast voidness to permeate, break apart the illusion of the separate lights, as we discussed earlier. And that's all that is.

And so if one ignores the thoughts, if one ignores, realizes that they're there, but just goes past them and just waits calmly and calmly as many moments of the day as one can just wait, you know, waiting on the Lord is the Christian way of saying it, and just waiting with expectation that the Self will rise up and show itself, which the Maharshi is very clear about, that this will happen, and there will be no words and no thoughts about it. It will be something that transcends both.

Justin Moore:

Would you care then to comment a little bit for the benefit of those who are working with mantrams and who have found that there are the increased energy associated with the blue voidness does tend to, well, your expression is break apart the old forms. How does this... well, could you describe this process a little bit further?

Bartholomew / Mry-Margaret Moore:

Well, it's merely a matter of that which is not given any energy will die if it is not real. Anything that is given energy, which is in this case thought energy, will be given energy, continue and continue... It seems to have a life to it because it is being fed, you see. So it seems to be alive. It seems to be continuing.

When one drops one's interest in it, as we stated before, one becomes bored with, and then with these flickering images, and chooses to see past it and to then concentrate and intensify one's interest on the blue void, you see. Now what happens with the flickering is that when one doesn't feed that image, when one instead is now feeding and giving energy to the blue void, this then takes the front field.

It's a matter of what has the field of your focus. And as I said, egos are very prone to spend eons of time fascinated by the flickerings.

And this, when they become tired of it, then they cease to give energy to those flickering thought-forms. They're only thought-forms, Sir. There's no reality. Anything that is born and lives must die. And thoughts are born. And they are given energy. And then they pass. They die. You see, they're no longer in your mind, you see. Thoughts that you had ten years ago, you couldn't possibly recall. I mean, they're gone. They're not a part of you any longer. They're gone. Now the ones that are still with you are the ones that you have continued to feed energy to, to believe in, to give substance to, you see.

And this is what is the formulation of the flickering being, what we would call the personality and so forth. So as one's interest is taken off of that in others and in oneself, then that begins to break apart because it has no substance.

The only life it has is what you've given it, which is your energy field. And as your energy field is withdrawn, and it's given instead to the energy field that has always been there, the blue void has always been there.

And when you choose to concentrate on that, then the hookup is made with that, you see.

Justin Moore:

Now, when you say the identification changes from the flickering light of the personality, does this also include the physical body? Is that being referred to as well?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

I'm sorry. I don't understand the question.

Justin Moore:

Well, suppose individual entities are attracted to each other on various levels, personality level, the mental level, the emotional level, but also on the physical level. Is the physical level included in this description of the flickering light? And consequently, as one merges into the blue void, one loses the physical interest along with the emotional and the mental?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

It all goes of a piece. It all goes of a piece. And it becomes more and more subtle, of course, as it goes on. But the physical most certainly goes, because... it's all part of this grand illusion, you see, that... to each of these flickering particles must relate in order to commune, that there has to be some kind of a relatedness. And when one understands that one is related to everything through this blue, through the Self, when one sees clearly that the Self is one and everything in the Self is one, then there is no longer any need to have a body, you know, two bodies to commune with.

Because all you need to do then is to turn to the Self. And you are at once in communion with all beings, not just specialized beings, but all beings, past, present, future, all beings.

And this is what you really reach for. And this is when you realize that there is no need for any specialized relationships, that there is no illusion to specialized relationships, because the blue... the Self has a totality and is not splintered off in any way. So I hope this answers your question.

Justin Moore:

Yes, but it raises more questions. You mentioned beings, past, present, and future. Are you suggesting that... take as an example of being Socrates, that one can still make contact with him?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

The way that we best understand this is those personas, those persons who have given up the illusion of a separate self are not really available to you in a physical form. What you can touch and contact is the truth that they upheld, which is part of the Self.

The truth lives. The residue departs. You see, it lives, takes form, and dies. But the truth, which he expressed, is still there and is contained in the Self. And that data is accessible to you, yes. Now, as far as the persona, he would certainly not wish any such thing to, you know, I mean, that's finished for him. That is an illusion he has ceased to play with.

He has seen through and transcended that illusion and is not in any way interested in that. The fact is that he is, you know, very much a part of the Self. And all of that is very hard for me to describe to you here because we're still speaking from the perception of separateness.

And once one understands the Self, you will see that these questions really are self-explanatory. Once you experience that Self, you will see that all these separate particles have no meaning for you and the questions won't either.

Justin Moore:

Now, would you care to distinguish between the illusion of separateness that we experience as individual personas, personalities, egos, what have you, and the individuality that you seem to indicate exists at higher levels? For example, you have an identity of some sort. There are other masters working with us. They have identity. Socrates, in this new form, has some sort of identity. How does that work?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

I repeat, we play the rules according to the illusion and the game that you have created. On the earth plane, what is meaningful to you is what we use. And at the time, the kinds of things that are important are masters, are teachers, are separateness. That is how we can best help you. If we were to present the way things really are, we would not have any relatedness pattern between us.

And therefore, you could not understand me at all. All of this talk about masters and higher ones and greater ones is in itself unreal. You see?

Justin Moore:

Well, this is what I've been worried about this past week. I couldn't understand how that coordinated with your comments on free will and reality.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

There is no separate... there is no separate sense. But in order to make meaning on the earth plane, we must use the tools that you have given us. You have created this illusion and we are now going to try and use it to turn it into something useful. And in order to do that, we must use the tools. And we must use the names. And we must use the forms that you find meaningful. I cannot speak to you about what transcends time until you are in that transcendent time zone, which you can reach through meditation.

This is why people should meditate. I don't mean just sit there. I mean to deeply meditate because it is through deep meditation that you do transcend the time-space continuum. And it is in that state that we can communicate the deeper realities that will have meaning to you, you see.

We cannot really do it when you're in this state of mind. You really have to move up so that we can move down. And those are not even real words, you see. I'm not even speaking truth when I say that. But as best as I can explain it to you, that's what has to happen. Do you understand?

Justin Moore:

I... well, as much as I can, I do.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Well, when you move out of the space-time continuum through deep meditation, you will touch on to the hem of the Self. And when you're in that state, you will take back with you, these again are false words, you will take back with you the vibrational frequency, the understanding, the deep imbued wisdom of even a moment in that time.

It helps tremendously on the earth plane to break up the seemingly solid form that you have created, the structures that you've spent so many lifetimes creating. So that is why we really have to say that the deepest states cannot be understood. None of these questions have any great meaning for you until you can move yourself out of the space-time continuum and begin experiencing them. They're simply intellectual understandings. Most people hearing this tape have only intellectual understanding of what I'm saying.

Now, it is true that some have reached various states through drugs, but even that is a very pale and unmeaningful reality compared to what is really there. This is why we ask that people give what time they can through making a very deep thrust for deep meditational experiences, because it is in that state that we can really show you, that you can be shown the truth that we're speaking.

Justin Moore:

Well, there are other questions that I'd be tempted to ask, and I will then, since you encouraged me to. But to summarize what you just said, and I think that we've made this type of comment before, the fact that we are participating, we being the flickering lights on the surface of the blue void, the fact that we are participating in this illusion precludes our understanding the answers to the questions, which we would not ask if we weren't participating in the illusion.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

That's right. And you cannot receive the answer until you cease to participate in the illusion. You can become more and more convinced that you don't wish to participate. And when that really rises up as a burning desire in you, you will more and more and more seek to, in your words, escape the illusion, which means that you will try to, in your words, go somewhere else. You see, you will try to make a movement away from.

And all that we're saying here is that the only thing that the human can really do at this stage, and this is a very vital point, the only thing that the human can do at this stage of entrapment in the illusion, is to begin to remove the energy from the old structures, the flickering lights, as you were. To try and remove the energy from that area, and to build it in another focus, and that focus being the Self.

Now, that means many things to many people. The Self to some people, and this is very helpful, means masters. You see, we represent that focus. We represent the Self. And we do. Because we are part of it. And a knowing, awakened part of that. And so what you're really doing is calling on that knowing, awakened part of the Self that is you. But at this stage, you cannot perceive that.

So it is brought this way. I am sorry that we cannot be more clear, but it's simply impossible to convince people who are asleep that they are partly awake. I mean, it's not possible to make them understand that a part of them is awake and alive and creating, while the other part of them is inert and asleep and in a stupor. You see, they don't believe this.

So the focus on a master, or the dedication to a system of meditation, such as Zen or so forth, all of these are extremely helpful, because all of those things represent the shift of your focus. In essence, Sir, that's all a path is.

In essence, the only thing a spiritual path is, is giving you a new focus. It's taking your focus off of the individual self and placing it on the vaster Self. And the best paths, the highest paths, are the ones that say, concentrate on the ultimate, which is the Self. Now, the problem with saying that is that so many people are not capable of doing that.

You see, the Maharshi's path is so geared for only certain people. And that's why we say, to those who really can do it, do it. But very few are really able to do that. I mean, it is incredibly difficult to keep oneself focused on something that you don't even know is there, you see. And have the belief that it's there so that one spends all of one's time working at it. The reason that we have such intrusions into your sphere of time-space as my experiences, you see, my speaking to you and so forth, is to convince you of the reality of these things so that you will begin to focus, starting with focusing on a master, which will by no means retard you at all because, you see, that is still a change of focus that represents the Self.

And eventually, that will merge into the Self. Be... be absolutely clear that this is a way. This is a way. And it can work. And it will work. And for most people, it does help to have some kind of focus, concrete focus at the beginning. For those who are refined enough to be able to simply work on the Self, then by all means, I encourage you to go forth and do it. But again, I'd say, that's very rarefied air and difficult for many. But by all means, if you can do it. Have I made this clear to you?

Justin Moore:

Yes, you have. Well, then, is it the case that when one has totally shifted the focus of one's attention from the persona and from the concerns of the persona to the Self and has, as a consequence, been able to identify with the Self, is at that point that one is, quote, enlightened, unquote?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

That's the beginning. Because you see what will happen - and will happen in both yours and your wife's case - what will happen is that as the energy moves away from this ego structure and the ego structure begins to disintegrate and the power is transferred to the Self, as this begins, oftentimes it is at times a periodic thing, you see.

There will be a shifting, a great deal of shifting in the beginning stages between the two. There will be times of exultation and there will be mundane-ness represented by the ego structure. There will be times, days, perhaps, of being completely caught in the ego structure and then a reminding and a renewal and a movement back again into the Self. This kind of thing is to be very much expected and not to be deprecated at all. I mean, don't in any way feel that this is wrong. But this will be a hallmark to you when the things of the world, when the things of the ego begin to make less and less... have an impact on you, when you care less and less what other people think of you, when you care more and more about how much you're thinking about the Self, however you may personify it.

When you... the more time you're spent thinking of the Self and the less you spend thinking about the small self, you'll know the process is working for you. You see, if you spend most of your day thinking about mundane self, small self things, and a very limited time, say just an hour a day, on the Self, then the balance is way off, you see.

And soon it will come more and more and more to par, and then the balance will go the other way. It is only when the balance has really moved in the other direction and mi... and all of your time is spent embodied in the Self that we could really say you have become free.

Justin Moore:

Then is it that point that the chain of samsara is broken?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Yes, because there isn't any structure there any longer. It simply doesn't exist. Look where you will, you see only the Self. You see, you will not see it because it is gone for you. It is dissolved. Your vision has so filled with the Self, your total vision, I mean, your inner vision is so filled with the Self that look where you will, there is nothing but the Self. It simply has disintegrated all of the ego formations that were clustered about your vision.

You see, it's your vision that's the ego self. You see, it's merely a choice of what you choose to think.

Justin Moore:

Now, on the subject of free will, is there anything further that should be said about that? I realize we've gone over this several times.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Yes, but that's all right. We'll have to go over it more because, you know, many people intellectually say, oh, I understand, I understand, you know, why are they continually going over this, but the truth is that they don't understand. If they really did understand, they'd be free. So it's important that we keep going over this. Now, we sense that there was a one real question, which is, I feel this is what you were getting at today, earlier today.

There was a definite feeling that you were asking about the difference between "Does the individual being have free will to make choices? Does the individual make choices at all, or is it all done by the Self?" Is this your question?

Justin Moore:

Yes, and if not that, then what's the proportion? If it's not either or, then how much mundane ego free will is there, and then how much is really controlled by higher power?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Well, I'm afraid you're going to think that I'm very unsatisfactory in my answers to you, because I have to keep going back to the statement that... that I think even yourself said, Sir, which is the truth, that most of this will not be understood until it can be transmitted to you in that space beyond time and space. You see, because what you're seeking for is an experience to understand things, and that's the only thing that will ease your heart, that's the only thing that will bring clarity to your mind, is an absolute experience of this, and all else is simply an intellectual design.

Now, many people use intellectual answers to satisfy them, and the ego delights in this. This is, the ego's greatest delight is to have people listen to something intellectually and say they understand it and then stop there and not go on to experience it.

We are very pleased at your spiritual discontent, because the spiritual discontent of both you and your wife are the things that are going to bring you the victory. if you sit back complacently with the idea of, oh, well, everything is the Self, there's nothing to worry about and so forth, if that is a statement that is based on a true experience, then be assured you're in good hands.

If, on the other hand, it's simply something you've read in books, you see, many people listening to this tape will say, oh, well, we know all that. Oh, yes, intellectually, they know all that, but they've made very little effort to experience that.

You see, and there's a world of difference and lives are not changed through words. Lives are changed through experience. So, let us put it this way: the little self is eluded into thinking that it has free will. It sees itself as a dynamic and creative entity moving through experiences that have validity, that have power, that have consequences, that have potential. You see, this is how it sees itself. And I must tell you that this is not true. Now, you ask me, is it true that small self has the will to move from A to B? I say to you, it is utterly unimportant whether the self moves from A to B.

Justin Moore:

You mean, am I moving from one room to another?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Yes. It doesn't make any difference. You could move from here to California, to Calcutta, to wherever. It would make no difference. Those are totally unimportant movements. They are the movements that the ego has willed over. They have no substance. They don't matter. They're unimportant. All right? Now, that's part of the truth. All right? But there's another part of the truth that underlies all of this, which is the thing that I think is perplexing you the most. Is then it possible to say that God moves through everything you do? This is a very vital question. If your moving from A to B is only of the small ego, then where is there any God movement? All right. Now, and this is the part that will be very hard to understand, but we will do our best. On this plane, in your state of awareness, both are true. In the state that you are now in, both are true. By that we mean that the larger will allows you to make certain choices. It does not allow you to make all choices.

The reason it does not allow you to make all choices is because it's benevolent and has all-pervating love for you. Left to their own devices, the human beings would create a world of total and utter destruction.

Justin Moore:

Why is that?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Why is that?

Justin Moore:

Yes. Why is that so?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Because the ego perceives itself as the only player on the stage. It sees only other egos on the stage. And it sees in all these other egos antagonists to it. And it always feels... the ego always feels fear, frustration, anger, resentment, unfulfilled desires. It always feels that... this is the nature of the ego, it's perpetually... you know, it's a very sad thing that the nature of the ego is to constantly strive for, to achieve, and then find no value in what it's achieved.

This is the incredible sadness of the ego. Now, the reason that it feels this striving is that it's a reflection of, it has within it, the divine creative force.

So it tries to create, you see, all of the movements of the ego are attempts to create. And they think they're creating, but the problem is if they were watching carefully they would see that what they create die. The thoughts that they create end. The lives that they bring forth die. The flowers that they plant disintegrate. The job that they work on is removed from them. Over and over they are shown the emptiness of their creation. But it is a mirror of the real creation which is the God Self which is the Self that's eternally creative.

You see, you're created like God, therefore you have the creative principle in you. Now, the ego misuses this. The ego takes this principle and tries to create it, but it is a game. I realize my words are difficult for you to understand and to enjoy, but the fact is that the ego is involved in an incredible game of deception and it just continues to go its own way, creating things with no substance that are doomed to die before they're even born.

They will only end in death. The death of the thought, the death of the body, the death of the creation, this goes on and on because that substance has no meaning. It has no divine meaning, divine will. It is not upheld by the divine will.

All right, now, let me go back to my other statement which is that out of love, the divine has allowed certain creations to take place on the earth plane. The reason is that there is the ultimate knowledge that each one of these separate selves will someday tire of the game.

That is written. Each self, given enough time to play it out, will come to its own awareness that it desires its return. You know, the father is like a lover in some respects. A real lover doesn't want his love to come to him because he demands it. He wants him to come to him because he wants, because there's a dual movement, you see. This is a very pale statement about... in answer to your previous question of why did the creation come into being in the first place.

This is a pale statement, but a part of it is reflected in that returning. When the seeming separate entity makes the decision to return, and on his return trip, the love that it begins to feel grows deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper until it becomes on fire, you see, with this desire to return to its father, to its lover, to its source, to its own, to itself.

It becomes so afire with this, and this is the play. This is the meaningful part of the play.

And so, the chaos that you observe is simply, strangely enough, it's a divinely loving thing to allow these things to play it out because it's through such tragedy, it's through such chaos, it's through such meaningless creation that the self wakes up and says, not this, oh no, I can't believe this is all. But you see, if the father intervened constantly, if he answered all prayers, if he turned all the water to liquid honey, if he provided you with all of the things that you desire, when would you ever stop desiring?

When would you ever say, but I really want you, my father, I really wish to be one with you, lover? Well, how would you say that? You see, you wouldn't.

So, in allowing the game to go on, to take its grinding, abysmal, dismal, limiting way, it is really a loving action to allow this to happen because everyone wakes up, and you know millions wake up all the time. Yes, it's something you don't perceive because you only see the earth plane, but there are other planes similar to yours that are involved in the same type of fantasy. And from the combined works of all these, millions wake up.

Justin Moore:

You mean there are other... what... solar systems?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Yes, right, there are many going on, and millions awaken and move. You know, it's interesting, there is a picture, I believe it's Dante who gives, I believe that, the souls and the angels moving toward the Godhead, and he envisions it with myriads of bodies moving up and so forth, and this is a true statement. It happens like that. That when the movement begins, it really is, seeing from our perception, millions of energy fields moving and forming as one and getting greater and more powerful and moving on. Have I answered at all better for you tonight, Sir?

Justin Moore:

Yes, but as we continue to ask it, it makes better and better sense.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Is there any area that you would like to bring up now that is still a puzzle in your life? Let me say one thing that perhaps is puzzling you. There are many times when you go from here to the store that are unimportant. That does not mean that every time you go from here to the store is unimportant. There may be one time in going from here to the store, it will be a destiny to meet a certain individual, have a certain event transpire.

So, always realize that God moves... You see, there are certain times when we have certain appointments, so to speak, that will be made, and those are not really totally up to you at all. We have made a divine appointment, in a sense.

This whole coming together through this was a divine appointment, you see, and works out as we planned. So, as I say, some of your movements are not important and are not imbued with any dynamic will, but then there are other areas that are. Does this confuse your words?

Justin Moore:

No, I understand that because I've seen evidence of the divine will at various junctures in my life, and that's what made the question of my own will so confusing, because it seems, in short, that almost nothing that I have planned works out the way I planned it, but it seemed as part of the groundwork that was necessary for other things to happen that I hadn't planned at all.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

That's right. That's right. That's the true perception. And the more and more and more you ask for the divine will to move in your life, that gives us the life which you seek. You see, although some things are ours to do out of love, certain events that will transpire, other events that will be kept from transpiring, out of love, there is also constantly available that whole area of allowing us to move in your life through your choice. Now, once you begin to do this on a consistent basis, once the entity keeps asking "Let me see with your vision, let me feel with your love, let this be your life that I'm leading and not mine." You see, more and more and more of this, the surrender, surrender to the divine plan, the more that you do this, the more that you wake up every morning saying "Let this

day be yours, Lord, let me this day all day long, move in your rhythm and not my own."

You see, the more you ask this, the more during the day you concretely attune up for that, the more it will be done for you, because as I say, it's a choice situation, and the energies will not move, oftentimes, they are limited in their movements because there is no asking, there is no calling out within, and once the calling out within begins on a continual basis, then there can be a time when you say your entire life is divine will.

There is a time, believe me, the great ones, in fact, not even the ultimately great ones, but even the ones you call your saints... Oh, many of them, all of their days and all of their nights moved in the divine will. They were not always awakened enough to perceive the finer sensitivities, you see, but nevertheless, the reason they were so filled with bliss, so filled with joy, so apparently insane to the world was because they were constantly involved in this divine bliss.

And it is a reality, you see. And the reason is they kept calling forth for it, always, always, always, attuning up to it, always keeping the vision on the Self and not on the ego, constantly denying the small self and asking for the larger Self. Isn't it right?

Justin Moore:

I have the perception that when I was much younger, and I don't know if I can generalize to all children, but in one's youth, it seems that this type of spontaneous joy, not that there's an ego at that point, but there seems to be more light and more rapport and harmony and that somehow as one gets older into adolescence and puberty and whatnot, one becomes more hardened and the ego form takes on a heavier shading and then you have to start going back into your, like, second childhood and get rid of that stuff and get back to where you were to begin with.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Well, that is not true of all children. Many children are born very hardened, and they come that way and the parents will oftentimes be stunned and surprised and rebuffed and put off, but some children are born that way.

And that's, of course, it would be a soul that had left the incarnational plane with such a tremendous load of misunderstanding that it had to, you see, it's come back into now trying to sort it out and deal with it. But in your case, you see, this wasn't the way of it.

You see, you did come in from a field of light and therefore you were sunny. But, you know, if you look at, say, your brother, this is not the case. Your brother was not sunny. Your brother had a very difficult beginning and was given to many so-called difficult fits or emotional outbursts and so forth, you see. So it wasn't really the case in his sense.

And his very presence put off people when he was small. And you have a mutual friend who has a child who put people off. Just the very presence. And this is all valid. And it's because of the heavy karmic burden that they're going to play out. And it just jars sensitive people to see this.

Justin Moore:

Then perhaps you could talk about the creation story in Genesis, the number of days it took, the creation of the world.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

That I don't feel we should touch on because I feel that... that is very difficult data for the woman to gather. We can touch on the Adam and Eve situation. And well, first of all, it would probably come as no surprise to you that there was no such person as Adam and no such person as Eve in the literal sense. There were not two beings begun and then everything comes from that. There was not a rib taken out of Adam and the woman sprung from that. That type of thing was a symbolic understanding of something that has truth to it. Now, the question here has to be asked, when did the human come to the earth plane?

And how did it happen? It didn't happen that way at all. And it never needs to be in that sense. At the time that man decided to come to the earth plane, there were on the earth plane beings, part animal, you know, more animal than human.

Justin Moore:

The missing link, so-called?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Well, I guess that would be what they would call them, but they were really just part animal. And there was this vehicle that they decided to stay with and to modify for their own use. And it was simply... it was that simple. There was no need to go to any elaborate planning of, you know, two people and ribs and so on. That really is not a very good representation.

Justin Moore:

Then the evolution we see from the Australopithecus up through the more sophisticated forms of Neanderthal and into Cro-Magnon, that's part of the plan of man to modify a physical vehicle that would be appropriate for his incarnation?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

That's right. That's all that was. It was just the need... as they realized, as the desires changed and they had certain desires to do other things, then the vehicles adapted. You know, because mind builds, the mind builds the body form. It's very simple. The mind builds the body form and as these desires came to do other things, the bodies began to mold themselves to a whole new way of appearing.

And I promise you that the body form isn't finished in its movements either because now in the increasing ages coming on, this won't be relevant to you, but certainly will be for some people who hear this tape, that there will be... man is already being... is tantalizing himself with the thought of a super being, of a super man. And it comes out in various, very so-called on your earth lane corny ways, like this Superman who flies with the cape and forth and brings his power from another planet and now I don't know what else.

But anyway, all these things are valid beginnings. You see, this is how it's built. They begin with that and then bodies of light. You know, your science fiction writers are writing about these things, about beams of light and so forth that appear.

Now what really is going to happen is that the people will move behind a new idea in the camouflage that they're building. They will wish to have a different type of body that's not so heavy, that's not so prone to illness and so on. They will move away from that. In fact, it's already happening.

The movement away from the medical profession and so on. There's a plan and they're going to move into being fed from other sources. And this will go through various stages and then they will soon see that they will be fed by their thoughts and that the thoughts build their body form and then they will choose to build it in various ways. And it will probably, the next day, will probably be light form, some form of a lighter, literally a lighter body with much more movement and much less illness, you see.

This will then... the body will form to take the form that the combined worlds... people of the world plane want. And things like eating and so forth will probably go by because that has proven to be very cumbersome.

You see, what is cumbersome, they finally drop, you see. It's hard for us to explain this to you because you think that these are laws that are immutable, but it isn't true. I mean, what is cumbersome drops away, you see. Parts of actually your physical body no longer are what you used to have.

You know, there used to be tails and so on, tail bone appendages coming out from the base of the spine, these are dropping away, various organs are dropping into misuse and so on. }} They're cumbersome. And one thing that's very cumbersome is this feeding. The feeding turned out to be much more difficult than they thought.

Justin Moore:

Who thought?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

The combined world people who are making up this mirage in the first place, building the thought forms that they play with. It's all a play. They've all decided together, but it's not working very well. The feeding of the physical vehicle isn't working very well.

Justin Moore:

I don't mean to distract you, but you seem to be indicating that the illusion that mankind lives under was a cooperative venture.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

It is. Any ego who chooses to come to the earth plane comes knowing that they are going to participate in the illusion. Before you incarnate, you know you're going to participate in the illusion. And you choose to play by the rules.

Justin Moore:

So then at some point, primordial time and space, the human race decided that certain things would be and other things would not?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Well, they just started with what they had and it just created out of it. You see, there's no meaning to it. You see, people feel that, you know, that it's projected out into the future, what mankind is going to do, you know, what all these egos are going to do and so forth. Well, unfortunately, and I know this will be tremendously deflating, it isn't important. It isn't important.

The fact of what your egos combined try to do in the sense of what games you choose to play are not important. It does not matter what game you play, Sir. The games you play are not important. The only thing that matters in this whole drama is which ones are going to wake up and say, I don't want to play anymore.

That's all that matters. However sophisticated you can get. You know, there's this mirage that humans have that you're really better off than you were in past centuries and so forth.

Justin Moore:

I don't believe it.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

This is not a true statement. There is very little change. Things are very similar. You see, once again, the human race likes to think of themselves as progressing along and getting better and better and so on. And this is not true. In fact, in many ways, where you are now is far worse than where you have been in certain other periods of evolution, so-called evolution. So there's no validity to that.

From our perception, we don't care what game you're playing. Whatever game you're playing, we will move into that and try to use that. Because every game played on the earth plane is an illusion.

The highest game that you can choose to play is still an illusion. And the whole point of the illusion is to bore you to the extent that you will... or to terrify you, or to fill you with such remorse or such abhorrence that you will move out of that.

You know, the Second World War and the mess that the world found itself in ended up being helpful. Because there were so many people who became absolutely, in your phraseology, turned off by that whole drama, the whole horror of that drama, that they began to wake up. You see, they said, no, I cannot, I cannot participate in this. I cannot. I cannot see any good coming out of this. And so they turned to other areas.

And they turned within, many of them, and began to wake up. And so I'm sorry to have to pour water upon any of these great ideas that every day in every way the human race is getting better and better. This is not a valid perception. It simply is not. And it isn't important.

It really is not important if you are a bank teller or if you are a philanthropist. These things are not important. The important thing is, as you are being a teller or as you are being a philanthropist, are you also simultaneously growing up, waking up, throwing off the illusion? If so, then we feel this is a meaningful experience. Otherwise, no. Have I bothered you by that?

Justin Moore:

No. I'm just trying to take it all in. And I'm very intrigued by your comments about evolution. And the whole evolutionary process was also something that the human race concocted at some point?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Just as you create all of your games, you created that one too. The mind creates the form of the body. And as I say, as the mind got more and more sophisticated... you have to realize, Sir, that the mind creating... you know, the ego creating through the body has had a tremendously complicated go at it. The egos have just had a great deal of creative energy spent creating things that have no meaning, creating over and over and over again, complicated, complex... all of the technology of this age is pointless, absolutely pointless. I mean, we have no awe in our hearts for what we see you doing. It's just not important.

And it's no more important to have a great scientist who splits an atom than it is to have a woman who goes into a garden and plants a flower and has it bloom. I mean, there really is no... there is no importance to either function. Really. The only thing that matters in the function is what is the consciousness doing that, performing those functions. In what state of consciousness is it happening?

And if it's happening with a spirit of desire for awakening, for understanding, then it can be said to be a positive and a useful thing. That is the only criteria. People can be doing very destr... so-called destructive things and be awakening at the same time and be in much higher attunement than somebody who is so-called doing some good work and doing it only for their own ego gratification.

Justin Moore:

That's a very enticing remark. Would you want to give an example?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Well, a lot of people have condemned the image that is very vivid is, say in the war situation, pilots who were dropping bombs on citizens throughout the world. Many cases, many, many cases that I know personally and have observed personally, where... where this procedure so devastated them that the very act of destroying others just forced them, literally forced their consciousness into a state of beginning awakeness. And this can often happen on a battlefield. Now, you see, battlefields are terrible places. They can go either way.

Justin Moore:

How is that?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Well, the person can become so much a part of the game of war that they really begin to participate with all attention. And with it all goes the hate and the destruction and the venom and the rage and so forth.

So there's all of that. But then on the other side, they can either leave... the person right next to them can be having a totally different experience, which is one of such total abhorrence of what's happening that they vow that they will die rather than do this again.

And many do. When many realize that the only way out of this game that has been constructed by the society in which they live, they do choose to die. The wounded many times choose to die. As they mend their bodies, they must go back into the situation. They see no way out of it. And the structure is so created that they can't get out of it.

You see, they can't just say, I quit and walk away from the military. It's been set up. It's not possible. And they know this. So they just choose to die or to get so much worse that they have to be, you know, sent out of a dangerous situation and so on. So although wars are hell, there's no doubt about it, they also are a good proving ground for souls who are ripe to wake up.

This is not that we recommend war, please understand. It's simply this is the creation of man and we use it as best we can.

Justin Moore:

This in some sense connects with your remarks about... well, I'll have to use my own paraphrase: it occurred to me when you said it, it's been said from the divine point of view, when you're sad, I'm happy. "I" being the... the higher Self because that sadness, that grief, that disappointment, whatever is going to start breaking up or shaking to some extent the illusion that you concocted for yourself. Then war, likewise, as being on a massive scale, something that generates such incredible sorrow and grief can serve to elevate.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Everything that you have created on the earth plane we try to use. We don't really care what it is, you see. You do the creating and we try and use it. You know, you see, your combined egos create it, and then we do our best to use these events for our great ones. This is how we try and do it.

Now, oftentimes the pattern goes like this: as you start out, enjoy, for example, joy with the physical, joy with things like sex and food and wine and... and money [?] and power and so on. All right? This is a state of joy and it's very enticing, very intoxicating, you know. And then there comes a time where you... where it becomes ashes and it becomes abysmal.

And that is when it can be said that when you are sad, God is happy. But then you move out of that situation and you begin to wake up and you begin to have joy yourself. And then both you and God are happy. You see, because as you were moving through your awakening, there is a spontaneous delight.

You see, joy is contagious. And there is a delight in all creativeness when any part of the creativeness begins to move in harmony and to release the joy and the love that's inherent in the situation. When that starts to open up, there is a communing of joy. So in that sense, you could say that then God and you are both happy!

Justin Moore:

Does the story of Job connect with this in any way?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Well, the story of Job is very complicated, you see. I feel that's something we better go into at a different time because I think that the woman is getting quite tired. And I wondered if we could... if you have any last... a few questions. Maybe we could pick this up another day and put some more on this same tape.

Justin Moore:

Very good, yes.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

I don't know how far along you are.

Justin Moore:

Yes, fine. Let's do it that way.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

But I did want to say goodbye to our dear friends in Socorro. And I look forward to seeing you again. I feel that it won't be too long now before we're all together. Is that true?

Justin Moore:

This is true.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:

Fine. Well, I look forward a great deal to that, so good night.

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