Dr. John Aiken: [00:00:01]
This is the second session with Bartholomew in Socorro, New Mexico, January 2nd, 1978. Present besides the channel were John and Louisa Aiken. The question first asked was "how may we make our work with our quest group meeting each Tuesday evening more effective?"... trying to find more meaning in it. And as I'm seeking myself, as you know, so some suggestions for me as well as for the group, but basically for the group, a tape that I could play for them. Perhaps later something that might be more personal for me.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:00:44]
Well, I begin, of course, with a very warm, warm welcome to them all. And I'm sorry, you didn't really need to tell us that you had a group because we have been very aware of this for a long time and have been doing from our side what we could.

[00:01:08] The situation... the difficulty with the group, of course, is its fluctuating participation. It is difficult for us on our side to apply the necessary energies at the necessary times that would help, say, one of the older - not in terms of years, but in terms of time - in the group. Some of those people have been with you a long time. We have been trying to reach them with greater areas of awareness for quite some time.

[00:01:50] The problem comes when we cannot always do that when the people are changing and new people are coming in who oftentimes have very deep understanding, but not necessarily in the same line that you've been developing. Do you understand? So you're always in a situation, you as the guide of this group - and of course your wife - it is difficult to keep a flow going in a progressively deeper levels of understanding, which is how we best like to work in a group situation.

[00:02:31] Now what are you to do? Because this is... this is the nature of this particular group. Well, there's nothing you can do. And we are aware of this. We have been trying to impress on various key members of the group. There are seven key members who form the core of the group. And it is these seven members that we have been working on deeper levels with in various ways, opening up other channels, opening up new avenues that they might explore, some of which don't work out for them. Others do. So primarily the group that you have been working with come together. Now they are not necessarily aware of this connection, these seven people, they're not necessarily aware of their interconnectedness, but we are. And when they do come together in the meditation time, if I may put it this way, certain information is passed out among them.

[00:03:51] The one thing that perhaps you might think about changing is, so many of them are floating on a very thin membrane between the deeper realms of the world, the deepest parts of their being, and the less enlightened parts of their being. It is almost as if they are riding on the skin of the sea and they're seeking to break through that skin down into the depths and begin a serious depth maneuver. Do you understand the imagery here? Now, your job, sir, if you really choose to continue it and it has always been your job and your wife's job is to help them to break that skin of the sea open.

[00:04:52] Now, the one thing that we might suggest that has not really been emphasized enough perhaps from our perception is deeper meditations for them because many of them live extremely busy lives and are trying to solve things on the exterior level. And their real depth will not be touched until they break this membrane. And it can be done, but they must apply the knife of meditation, however they choose. Now you have a very composite group, you know. They do many different things, and that is fine. They should be encouraged to pursue in-depth meditation in whatever field they feel. For example, one - I feel very strongly - one of your people would definitely benefit by the book that this woman brought today for your wife to read. One of your students will be drawn to that book and should pursue that line. Now, many of them are not drawn toward the Buddhist way of thinking. That doesn't necessarily matter.

Dr. John Aiken: [00:06:15]
Are you referring to the book by Martin Chelsea?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:06:16]
Yes, yes, yes. One particularly will find this extremely helpful. Others peripherally will find benefit, perhaps, but there's one particular person. But in any case, the... the job is not to decide which one form of meditation is going to be used to break through, but simply to begin a program of them finding out their own way. You see, lying within them in the embryo state of all of these very, very beautiful people, really beautiful bunch of people lying so close to their heart is their own way, the way that will take them to the light. And if the thrust for the new year could be an in-depth awareness of coming to find their own way, which will be intensely difficult because you see, everyone will tend to look perhaps to you and your wife: "Will, how do they do it?"

[00:07:25] Well, your way is not their way, sir. And one of the group members, for example, I feel, will find a very independent, almost... what should we call far out way. But it will be that person's way, and it should be... it should be taken seriously. If you and your wife could somehow instigate an intensive search within for them to bring to their conscious mind the symbols that are meaningful to them and meditate upon these symbols... I'm being very specific, sir, because there are symbols, actual visual symbols that lie within each person, which, if meditated upon, will open the door that stands behind the world as you know it.

[00:08:25] Now, in one person's case, the cross will be the symbol. I see it clearly. Now, this is not true in the other people's case, but this person, in order to have this symbol become meaningful, must discover it anew. It's a woman, and she will find it on her own, you see. And it will just be like finding the Holy Grail before your eyes. It will be so meaningful, and that symbol will flow with her day and night. Because, you see, once we come in contact with our own symbol, that one symbol that is all meaningful to us, then our life begins to change. It takes on a totally different feeling. It becomes full and creative and light and meaningful only because we've come in touch with that symbol.

[00:09:16] Now, in some people's case, the symbol will be perhaps more nebulous. It will be perhaps a symbol of compassion. Now, that is a symbol. Compassion, sir, is really a symbol. And when I say compassion to you, sir, it means one thing. When I say it to someone in your group, it means something entirely different. That is the kind of thing that one must get. When one says "God" now to you that has one meaning. I assure you, sir, if you say God to the people in your group, it means very many different things. And as they come in contact with "what does that say to me?" - not "what does that think to me?" - you understand? It doesn't matter what their "think" is. What matters is: what does that bring up? What is there that rises up? That covers them in a feeling of security? You see, so many of these people are not secure in the world. That... many of them have have had extremely difficult lives, a great deal of pain and sorrow and loss and confusion and heartbreak. You know, it's not... it's... because some of them are older, you see, they have had time to be, shall we say, processed. And this is a difficult thing.

[00:10:43] And, coming in contact with these symbols that are lying right under the skin of the sea that we're speaking of, it will give them the feeling that they're seeking outside - which is really never to be found - it will give them the peace and the protection and that total belief, the total belief in the light. Because as they take these symbols and make their whole life meaningful remembrance of the symbol, they will change. Everything will change. You know, the very things in the room will begin to change for them. Sir, this has happened to you, so you do know what I speak, but I will repeat it for the sake of this tape, because some of them maybe have not experienced this. In looking at a rose, for example, when one has moved into the flow of one's own symbol, that rose is totally transformed. It becomes all of life. Life itself, in its totality, is then revealed in that one rose. And this is the kind of thing that we would wish for the people who are now in this group. And so many of them are so close to that. And it's almost as if they need to just rip apart the skin and allow themselves the glory of the light that is... that is so close because so many of them are so close. Oh, my heart fills with love as I... you know, my mind touches on these various members of your group, and the capabilities are unbounded. Unbounded. It has nothing to do with their verbal abilities, because verbal abilities have nothing to do with spiritual awareness.

[00:12:37] And so if you and your wife could in any way help them in a rather definite form. Sir, you're not very definite in your form in this course. You see, you're very... you're very open. And that is a beautiful thing, but if perhaps - just for the sake of these - say, a six month period, if you would give it a try to have a course of action, of inward action, to... you've read so many things, you've been in touch with so much, sir, that you could do this: set a certain format that... that you think would be helpful. Perhaps this new book that has come to you from somewhere. Yes. If you could perhaps use that as a format. I'm not... I'm not giving that as the only example, but some definite form so that they will keep working on it, have a way of gnawing at the bone, if you will, to pull aside the veil. And the light will show itself at different times for each of them in different ways. But this would be a tremendous help to them if you could give some thought to that.

Dr. John Aiken: [00:13:56]
Yes, I appreciate that. And if there are any other suggestions as to techniques as to how to go about it, I appreciate that.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:14:04]
Well, they must learn to write things down. So many of the humans find it a boring, tiresome thing. But in the beginning stages, sir, it's necessary to get it down on paper. For example, if you were to have a meditation session assignment. Very bad word, I realize, sir, but if you could, perhaps as an experiment, have an assignment. You see, if you give an assignment each week, this gives a cohesive movement to the group. And even though someone new comes in the second week, it won't matter. Because you see, the people will have had a building process going on and address a deep, spiritual, meaningful question for them to meditate upon that week. For example, it comes to the heart that one could perhaps say: what do you look on as the most sacred of all the symbols that your mind can think of that will give them the opportunity of going through all week? How many symbols are there? There are millions of symbols. But you see, each one will be drawn automatically toward the one that is really meaningful to them.

[00:15:27] You will find that some of them will come to this awareness superficially, and they will say: "Well, this is my symbol". And within two or three weeks it will dissipate, you see, because their mind will have told them that this was the symbol to work with, whereas actually it was something they had read, perhaps, you see? Or they have a friend or an uncle or someone who had gotten meaning out of a particular symbol. It will not be their own. But that's all right. That's all right. The process is one of uncovering. So address this problem directly. Perhaps, sir, this is simply a suggestion, just direct... a direct question during this week, cast into your mind and in your heart, because symbols are found in both places. The heart has its own symbol. The mind has its own symbol. There are different symbols, you see, because they are different. One - I hate to use these words, people become so trapped in them - there are certain levels of very bad choice of words, but if you will bear with me, there are certain symbols that relate to the level of the heart. There are certain symbols that relate to the level of the mind, and there are certain symbols that transcend both, but each will find their own place. So a beginning subject of that. And then after they have perhaps gotten in touch with that, then the following week perhaps for those - some of them are very beautifully artistically inclined - visualizing on a paper, an actual drawing of it. What we're trying to do, sir, is to bring it as a living, creative, totally meaningful symbol of the all. And it can be easily worked on this level. And many of your people are... are very inclined toward this kind of thing, toward the... the drawing of it, the embellishing of it in any way. Now, sir, this has not been meaningful to you. This is not a way you would have selected. But the particular people who are in your group, I think, will respond to this and the ones that don't wish to visualize it as a... on paper, for example, the ones that have a more abstract symbol that comes to them, that is no less valid.

[00:17:53] A symbol that is not terribly abstract is no less valid, as I know you know. So you are a perfect person, actually... you and your wife are perfect people to enjoin on this kind of a thing because you don't have any very rigid ideas of what will be acceptable and what will not. And let them go. Let them find their way. And they will. Some of them very quickly, some of them very quickly. And it will become, if you will, a focus for their movement into the deeper states of meditation. I do feel, sir, that there are many of them who are very ready for some deep states of meditation, and you've read much on the subject. And also, please be aware that we're constantly placing in your hands data that we hope you will use. You see, since you are an open channel, we are able to use you. You see, I hope you understand - we mean in the positive sense - in the sense that we will give data to you through various written materials and so forth that we in turn hope you will incorporate in your group, which you do. The one thing that we would ask is that there be perhaps less now of a mental discussion of things and now move into the more difficult yet the more meaningful areas of bringing out the deep symbology and deep light that lies in all of these people. Do you have a specific question?

Dr. John Aiken: [00:19:32]
My greatest concern, of course, is first, my own growing in order that I might be able to share more.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:19:39]
That's true.

Dr. John Aiken: [00:19:40]
And the two are opposite sides of the same coin. And I haven't been able to separate them really. But if there's any way or suggestion that you would make that would be helpful in that ongoing quest, it would be appreciated. And if there's anyone else there besides yourself that would come through this would also be... type of your judgment.

Unidentified Source / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:20:12]
This next will be shorter. It is much more difficult of a transmission than what has gone before. The vehicle of the woman is weakened at this time.

Dr. John Aiken: [00:20:27]
Let's postpone this...

Unidentified Source / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:20:30]
No, no. This can only be transmitted in symbolic form. She will give you what she sees. There's a vast ocean of unending, undulating particles of ever living light. That is the reality that stands behind the world that you know. The physical body that you see is a shadow. The light plays through that shadow at all times in all peoples. There is no way for anyone to escape the destiny that God has planned. The destiny is the same for each human. The destiny is to become inundated with the light. The ego shadow perceives this process as death, but the light will prevail because it is the deepest wish of each entity on earth that they be inundated by this light because it is through this light that they find peace.

[00:22:29] The ego structures of all the humans are made of the same substance. It is ethereal and unreal. A shadow only. We tell you this now so that those in the group who can understand what we say will use this image: a shadow thinly made through which endless, pulsating, eternally creative light moves through. This is the reality of the human ego. Those who concentrate on this symbol deeply within their hearts will come to realize the reality of which we speak. We end with our blessings that we give you that you can receive at this time.

Dr. John Aiken: [00:23:57]
We have wondered whether you find yourself to be a part of this woman's subconscious or higher self, or whether you find yourself to be a separate entity.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:24:10]
Well, both answers are true. In the sense that... that I am a part of her consciousness is that she and I and you and your wife and indeed all of us are part. That it is a oneness that we experience. In your earthly terminology, I am separate from her. In the deepest movements of her being, we are one in the sense that she and I have shared for eons of time a common goal. I have been her teacher for so long that in her awareness she is not separate from me, just as I in turn am not separate from my teacher who is a part of me in a totally integrated way. You see sir, it's a matter of meshing vibration rays. I will try to put this in terminology. It is difficult to translate this type of thing. I will try my best to.

[00:25:25] If you could envision, if you would, vast areas of... of light. Now, just as the prism on earth will take a white light and reflect it out in many colors, so it is in the vaster regions. That intensive, all encompassing white light is also broken down into myriads of colors. Now if each one of those colors is broken off, though there is a way of... of saying those individual... colors are separate from the white light. Do you understand? All right. Now, in that sense, I could say that if we would put myself as the white light, which I do not identify with, do not identify myself that way, but for this analogy, if I was in the white light, then the woman herself would be one of the colors. And in that sense, there are a lot of other colors that are closely related to her other offshoots. You and your wife are offshoots also of her, of her particular ray of light. Do you understand?

[00:26:37] All right now. And just as I am a color to another vaster light, you see, this is the way that this vast, beautiful thing is... is expressed. And so, yes, in a sense, I am separate from her. In a sense, I am totally one with her. In another sense, she can never be apart from me. In another sense, she is free to think of herself as apart from me if she chooses. This is a matter of her choice. That's really about all I can say. These words of subconscious and so forth really have no meaning. And... but... so I can't really speak in those terms because that is not how I experience it.

Dr. John Aiken: [00:27:33]
If I may ask...

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:27:38]
You may ask anything.

Dr. John Aiken: [00:27:38]
... have you had an Earth experience in human form?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:27:44]
Oh long ago... It has been a long time, and this is one of the reasons why I'm so anxious to work with this woman, because it won't be long before she won't have to worry about that either. And in a sense, these colored lights move together. Again, my terminology may be difficult, but in a sense, when all of the colors that represent that vast ray, they will probably move at pretty much the same rate. These are very bad words because we're not speaking of things that don't exist, such as time and movement in this sense, but if we could deal with it this way, all of the colors out of that particular prism, they will move at a certain rate. And when their understanding is whole, then... and they're free to move on to another... into another state of experience. And she's approaching that, as are you, as is your wife, as are the other people who you perhaps sense are also part of your color scheme. And I'm hopeful, I'm very hopeful that this can happen for all of you. Certainly, hopeful it'll happen for this woman soon, because she's beginning to sense, and this is how we can tell, when they begin to sense that they... they don't feel the pull toward this surface any longer. It's not a repulsion, please understand. It's not pushing away in disgust.

[00:29:25] It is a dawning, I think is a very good word, a dawning of an awareness that there is a much vaster world in both world to experience. And this is what she's working for.

[00:29:40] Yes, I have to answer your question. Yes I have been on the earth before. I have actually been with you, sir, before, not with your wife, but your wife has a very close connection with someone who I am very closely connected with. So in a sense, it's all one. And it was many years ago and she knows she has in fact experienced a part of that life through one of these sessions, which was the session that I felt we were ready then to... to really communicate. If you recall, you had a session with her in which she was in a cave like room, and we were speaking and she was speaking to one of the brothers. Now, that was not myself, but it was at that particular time of her incarnative pattern that I was also in her life. Therefore I could use that as the time. Do you understand? I could use that because the... the reference point was there for me. So I can use that... That is not the figure that she was speaking to, but I was able to use that.

Dr. John Aiken: [00:30:52]
Now perhaps something for a question in Socorro. We have been considering rather intensively the question "What am I?", sometimes "Who am I?". And if you could give something along that line it would be helpful in their understanding.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:31:13]
Well, first, I think that both statements are valid and both statements are helpful. To some, the question "who am I?" is much more meaningful than "what am I?". So I think a great deal of looseness in these terms is excellent, which you and your wife both provide. And I think that if you could give them... the... the hardest part, the very hardest part for the human who identify so strongly with the physical body, the hardest part of this learning process for them is to get the sense of a "not now". Now by that I mean they tend to think in terms of now as something very substantial and very concrete. Now is now. It is a thing... Now the Who am I question is not to be addressed to that concreteness, you see. The image perhaps that might be helpful for some of them as they see this who or this what, it is to present the question and then allow no answer to arise. At all. No idea, no concrete thoughts, nothing. This is so difficult. It is the nothing area that they must immerse themselves in. And for some of those people in your group, it can be a real immersion. In fact, interestingly enough, one of the early derivations of the baptism form, when one was baptized in and immersed in the river, in the waters, this is a man's symbolic yearning to immerse himself totally in this flow of nothingness. And then it becomes very important as a symbol.

[00:33:17] But if they can grasp that it is this vast "no place" that is their home, and the way that they can easiest reach it, I would feel for this particular group, is in their sitting time, if they can search... - a very strange way to put it - to search for what isn't there, to become very attentive and attuned for feeling and listening for what isn't there. They will understand that as they start working with it because, you see, if something arises, well they'll say, well, this is here, it's not that. And so it becomes the nate-nate, not this-not this type of thing. But eventually, when they become accustomed to this, they will very easily be able to... then as they're walking or driving or sitting or whatever, they will be able to fall into the nowhere. As they become more accustomed to that, they will be much more able to do it in the varied movements of their lifestyles. Have I made this clear.

[00:34:35] As far as any helpful suggestions, it's very difficult to do that for you because so much of what we send to you, you pick up on a daily basis. So, you seem to be very deeply attuned to our requests, and so therefore we don't have to shout at you. We shout at some of them down there, did you know this? We have to shout very loudly sometimes, and the methods that we use sometimes, they seem quite excessive, but they're not excessive really, because the goal to be reached is so much more important than the methods that we sometimes use.

[00:35:21] But in your case, we don't shout at all and we speak quietly and you hear, and therefore perhaps you're not always aware that you are such an excellent transmitter. I do not wish to leave the idea that we are using you, and I hope that this is not the sense in which I am being understood. We're not using you in the sense that... against your will. The reason that we are able to use anyone on the earth plane because they have asked it. They have allowed it. Were you not to allow it, instantly we would cease in any way to try and use you to help others. I hope this is very clear to everyone. No one will... is never used for our purposes unless their heart is open and their mind states a cry: "Please let me help". And you have given that cry many times. And we have taken your at your words.

[00:36:28] Hum... this is very difficult for the woman, and I'm not sure she will be able to keep up, but let me try... Your life has been spent and was begun to develop to its fullest the heart. It is not understood by many people what one means by the heart, but I would like to explain to you what you already intuitively know, Ma'am, which is that the force of the eternal moves in many different areas. In your husband's case, it moves through his mind. This is a valid and important movement. In your case, it moves to the heart, which is a valid and important movement. There is no difference in the validity of each expression.

[00:37:42] Now, humans tend to have orders of priority. They think, because the brain is situated above the heart in the physical body, it is more important simply because it is placed at a higher level. Do you understand this? This is nonsense. It has nothing whatever to do with anything. But this is one of the things that the human mind catches on to. In your life, Ma'am, you have tended to downgrade your own incredible heart quality because somehow you feel that you should be able to function better in the mind quality. There is nothing wrong with your mind. At all. It serves a very fine function. The problem comes in feeling that you should be... you cannot move in two areas at once. You cannot be both. This is very difficult to explain. The Force moves through one center or the other, primarily in each human. In your case, it moves through your heart. Your husband's case moves to his mind.

[00:39:22] The acceptance of this will be, and I think you do accept it... it is only you fall into the trap sometimes of thinking "Well, why don't I do it that way?" Am I reaching you at all? What... what we're asking you to do is to realize that no human vehicle, physical vehicle, is capable of the energy moving through both sections at once, both mind and heart. It is not possible. There may be a time, but we will not worry about that. Right now, the physical vehicle is constructed in this way, and the power is no greater through the mind or through the heart. The power that is able to be transmitted does not depend on which center it chooses to manifest through. So what are asking from these things is to have a greater appreciation for the power that does move through you and trust it. Don't be concerned about the mental process. We've put that in the hands of your husband. This is one reason why you are such a good combination for a teaching vehicle, because there are people in your... but now your husband has been concerned about this and we would like to speak to that.

[00:40:49] He's been concerned that he is perhaps pushing his students into areas that are his rather than what might be their natural bent. Well, tell him to be aware that you are there, too, and that it is a dual group, and that we have taken care of that for him, because it is true that if he were teaching alone, there would be a difficulty because some of the people in this group are very much heart-oriented people. Very much. Perhaps more so than they understand. And so, that is your function. That's why you're there. In his case, he is there in order to make clear much of the confusion that goes on in their mind. But those functions need to be represented in a really well-rounded group. This is why we like, whenever possible, to work with two people, because we find that people are drawn together into a group, but they still have a need for both areas. This is very difficult for the woman. So I'm not going to go into much more with this. But have we answered anything?

Dr. Louisa Aiken: [00:42:13]
Well, I know that I have questions right now and I wonder: do I really... do I really know or am I just being lazy?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:42:22]
You're not being lazy. As I say, you see, you don't have to shout and people think they're lazy if it... people aren't shouting at them, you see. But this is not... this is not your case, and I'm very, very grateful for this opportunity to tell you. We would have told you, of course, that you're crossing, but it's... that isn't imminent for you for a while yet. So it's nice to know ahead of time. And I'm very grateful. And I would like, if it's possible, we would like to have you on the sessions when possible, because oftentimes there are things that need to be said, plus the combined energy of the three of you. It makes it easier on the woman.

Dr. John Aiken: [00:42:59]
I've found something that you were asking...

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:43:01]
No, she's fine. She's fine. If you have... and she... this is a very good connection. So today the configuration is right. So if you have anything...

Dr. John Aiken: [00:43:15]
Ask whether you have an insight into my past, and...

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:43:21]
There is a great deal of that. There is a great deal of that.

Dr. John Aiken: [00:43:27]
... interests that might be helpful from that area.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore: [00:43:35]
Well, mostly it's not helpful. Mostly it is finished. And mostly you draw the veil and forget it. But the one thing that does make it interesting and important card is that in this particular time in the world history, we have selected to send - with your total acquiescence - representatives from different parts of... of the ancient teachings to the Western world. Well, you know, it's very interesting for us to listen, if you will, to the human beings and their tremendous surprise at this whole wave of... you know, influence from the East, I think is how they put it. And this is very humorous for us because, of course, it is not anything that just sprung into being, it's something that was very carefully planned and executed with great finesse. It is not a chance, and that is why you are here in this particular place, this particular time. It is also why the woman in here. And your wife is of a different strain. It is true she's had oriental births [?], there's absolutely no question of that. But her later births have been in the Christian era, and this is another reason why we've selected her, because in her is perhaps a better blending of the two. Now in yourself, the strain is very definitely. And we do need key people all over the Western world who are so imbued with this that they are able to bring through clearer. I think we must stop this now... and let us tentatively make an appointment for visiting again.

Dr. John Aiken: [00:45:25]
I understand. Thank you very much.