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Justin Moore:
This is the 17th of July, 1978, Santa Fe, New Mexico, and we are having a session with Bartholomew. Good evening, master.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Good evening. I will start again, as I always love to do, with my great love and deep joy for our friends in the South. And I would also like to comment on my great delight at the growth of their group. I feel that this is indicative of great power moving with importance and validity, and we are extremely pleased and extremely grateful that you are willing to lay down so much of your life for the growth of others. And we do bless you and we do thank you. And we do look forward to seeing you.

Justin Moore:
Master, we'll begin with the...

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Excuse me. I'm so sorry to interrupt, but I would like to say that at our next meeting with our friends, it may be that you, sir, won't be here. So I would like to get this on a taping so that they will hear it. The next time they come you might be gone, so I would like to say that I would like to ask them to be sure to suggest that we try and contact their masters. I feel that is long overdue. I would like to start it as either the first or second or third topic on our next taping when they're here, because I feel that they have waited long and we must do our best to try and meet all needs.

Justin Moore:
Very good. This first question has been brought to mind from by a program - of course, there have been many programs on this subject - and it's a topic that concerns a great many people worldwide, and although it sounds a little odd to introduce it, I'm going to anyway, and it has to do with flying saucers.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
You shouldn't hesitate, because it's a vital... Did you wish to speak more or should I?

Justin Moore:
No. Let's... let's take off with it.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Well, it is vital. It is vital. And we're excited. I will say we're excited by all of this. Now, you've noticed in the last few years there's been a tremendous increase, not only in films, moving picture films, but also television films and radio broadcasts, and many of the books - if you will, look in the book section in the... many of the of the stores, I don't know quite what you call them, those large stores that they have all these books in them... department stores - you will notice that there are many books dealing with space and other planets and visitations and so on. And going hand in hand with this is a tremendous increase in sightings. Is this true?

Justin Moore:
Yes it is.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Increase in sighting? There's a tremendous increase in the amount of sightings that have been seen throughout the world. Now, this is excellent. Now, let me explain in what sense I mean this. The hardest job from our side of the light is to convince people on the validity of anything that is not of their own material universe. When they are forced to come to the actual belief that a space vehicle is not there one moment and is there another moment, when they have actual film footage to play over and over and over before their bedazzled eyes, to understand that this is real, they will then begin to understand the overlapping of the planes of consciousness. You see, the thing that they are caught in is the inability to think in anything except linear thought, you see? So in a linear situation, a spaceship has to be in so many light years away, it moves through space-time and comes here, right? This is the way a human thinks. It's a linear thought. Now, this is all going to be turned on its head because they are going to understand through countless, more and more and more photographs of a spaceship materializing, which they already have footage on, by the way, they already have footage on a spacecraft materializing instantly from another dimension. Now, these are things that are in all of your books, and all fairy story, and isn't it funny, and nobody believes it, but everyone down... somewhere within them does believe it because it's true. And they know this. You see, they carry with them enough of a residue from out of the body experiences to know that there are other states that impinge on this one, other worlds that impinge right here. It isn't as if there's this world and the next door is another world. They impinge one on the other, you see.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
So this is extremely helpful. So, we're very pleased. We're very pleased, although a lot of nonsense is being, you know, incorporated with this, still, the basic thrust is excellent. Now, I sense that there is always a deep question about... since humans work from an attack and a fear position, they are always afraid and they're afraid of being attacked by each other, by institutions, by other countries, and now, of course, is the ultimate threat: another planet, you see, they see this as a tremendous threat. This is not the case. If there had been any necessity or any desire on these extraterrestrial beings to have attacked you, they would have done it long ago and they would have been extremely successful because their abilities far outstretch any imagination, any imaginative thought that you might have. So, let us put that totally aside. Now, the problem always lies... all right... now, we see that there are various drawings that have been made of what they call the humanoids. These are not the physical vehicles. They are casings that have been... in many times they're just material casings that have been placed over a light form or form. Now, the reason is that they're very foreign to you, you see? And there's fear. If you were to perceive them in their true form, there would be tremendous fear. So if you will look carefully at the drawings that are presented in various... actual, actual drawings, they look rather put on.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
It's true, they are. They've been put on. And so, don't be misled by that, that kind of thing. But I would say, please to anyone, don't be anxious, don't be worried, but also be open to the fact that this is the coming of a new awareness and it will be increased in the next ten years a great deal. Many more sightings, a great deal more contact, a great deal more of real honest contact will be made. And... it's not to be feared. And don't worry about it. There's no hostility meant. It's a matter of trying to understand and trying to accumulate data so that if certain contingencies arise, there can be movement. Because you see, it is true: we cannot tolerate a destruction on this planet, not because of this planet itself, but because of the incredible reverberations throughout all of the compacted area. You see, it's... humans think of themselves as one world, you know, and they see themselves as floating in space with nothing around them that they can harm, and this is not the truth, sir. There are other forms of consciousness that impinge totally on this one, and any movement of love from yours outward greatly helps. But any move of destruction and actual vibrational reverberation is very destructive and you have moved into a tremendously destructive era. The whole atomic movement is terrifying because it's like children with incredible bombs in their hands playing with them in a sandbox. And it is frightening. It is extremely frightening to these other entities who see this. You see, they perceive this directly. They have always been... they have been aware of your increasing buildup and your increased power in your devices. And as you choose to explode these on and on and on and experiment with greater and greater power, there is great fear and there is great fear because they realize that you are not capable of controlling your own environment. You are not. The Earth plane does not have the commensurate wisdom that goes with this ability, you see. You've been able to take out of the great wise wisdom pool pieces of information, put it together, but then you've used it for destruction, and all of the high words about using it for creativity have not materialized. They have been used for destruction. And there is great fear because what affects you, believe me, it affects the impinging universes. And they cannot stand by, you understand? They cannot allow a child to continue to play with a dangerous toy when there are adults around who are capable of stopping that action. And so they will take action if necessary.

Justin Moore:
Now, are we referring to the entities in the flying saucers or other forces or a combination?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
It's a combination because you see, those entities in the flying saucers are... most of them are tremendously aware. They're in a much vaster area of awareness than the human is. You see, there's not a compensatory understanding here. You are as children compared to them, and it is a great testimony to them that they have not destroyed your earth. You know, they have understood this. They're very compassionate beings, very compassionate. They're not here to destroy. They're here to learn and then try to influence. And that's what they're going to try to do. It's to try to influence changes, changes here, changes there, changes in the thought forms, doing their best to work with the power of mind. They have the power of mind and they're trying to impinge new creative thoughts on the mental plane. You know, there is a mental plane on the earth. I'm sure you're aware that there's a physical plane and there's the mental plane, and they work with this mental plane trying to put more and more positive forces of understanding and uses of positive influences into that mental body.

Justin Moore:
Now, are you suggesting that the Earth has a mental body? I mean, the Earth has a physical body or a physical plane.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
There is a mental sphere that moves throughout the entire earth. Just as there is a spiritual vibration, there is a mental vibration. And it's that mental vibration that you call earthly consciousness. There's a consciousness of all the humans. And although you each have individual - so called individual consciousness as you perceive it - this is of course, the grand illusion that we've discovered before, that you are not at all separate. Your awareness is not separate from your wife. Now, taking all of the personal, individual consciousness together, you have what you call the human consciousness. Now I'm speaking very literally because you have to... then you see the trouble that we're involved in. I mean, do you understand what I'm saying? This is a tremendously difficult force field for us to deal with. All of the humans put together, with all of their varying resentments and hatreds and self-pity and illness - I mean, there's a tremendous amount here, and what we're trying to do is uplift the whole thing. But that's why we're calling so desperately for any representatives of the light to help us, because we need to put new data into that mental body. This is what we're doing. Each time I speak to you, each time I speak to our friends, each time we make a tape, each time anything goes out, I am affecting the mental body of the planet. And this is why I'm here. This is why we're all spending our time this way. Even if nothing happens to change your life and the life of your wife and our friends, which is nonsense, because many changes have already taken place, but even if that were not to have happened, we would have done our service because what I'm doing is getting the data out into the mental body and people will pick it up. There are receiving stations of humans who are ready, whose consciousness is ready to pick up this fine data. They're finely tuned and they will begin to pick it up and even the lesser finely tuned ones will get some feeling of it. You see, that's all... that's what this is all about: infusing a quality of positive, hopeful upliftment into the mental strata of this that surrounds the globe.

Justin Moore:
That's extremely interesting. Now, the next step... there is a spiritual sphere surrounding the earth?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Yes, there is a movement. You see, it's all moving energy. And one of those movements is, of course, the realm of the spirit. And this is from the Source. This is the great upwelling of the Source that just fires the whole thing. And it moves here, too. And this is, again, what we are always, always trying to do, is to take from the outer, the great vast outer sphere of light, of moving, undulating light and have as many of the people on the earth plane draw it in. And as they draw it in, we, of course, bring it to them. You see, it's a compound movement. They reach out and we give it and they bring it in. You know, this reaching out is very important, you see. And as you reach out, like in your meditations, like in your prayer, like in your thoughts, whatever, you're reaching out. You know, if you just hold your master in your mind, you don't have to do a lot. You know, just just think of him. And this brings in a thought and each thought, you know, we're back to our two, four, eight as our friends to the south typed it out in his data sheet, the 2-4-8 business, you know: one thought leads to 2 positive to 4 to 8 to 16... remember? This is the two, four, eight. It works. And this is... this is what we are talking about. And each time this happens, it just sends out this tremendous energy. So each time you think a lofty thought rather than a dark thought, the entire mental body of the Earth plane is better off. And each time your heart rises in a spirit, a movement of spirit, this helps the whole spiritual light to come in more. So you see, it's this kind of a dual action: you reach out, we feel your heart. You lift up your heart, we fill it and return it to you, and in returning it to you, we spread it. You see the glory.

Justin Moore:
Now, if I go back to the mental plan for a moment, if the analogy holds, then for the mental body of the planet, there would be a memory. And the... the whole history of the planet would be embodied in the memory of the planet's mind.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Yes. Certainly.

Justin Moore:
So then one could go back... one could contact, if for some reason one was interested in, say, the golden age of Greece, one could contact that in the memory of the planet.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
You could contact the ideas, the thought-forms, the constructs. Yes. Now, understand, I am not saying you can contact the physical persona. Okay, let's make that clear because that is not a possibility. So, so many of those hopefully have moved on and if not, are certainly not in that stage. I mean, that... that is... what is left is a residue. As the thought goes out, thoughts don't die, you know, they just move out. Now, thoughts that are given energy continue to build. Thoughts that are not given more energy, eventually they do not die in that sense. They dissipate. They just dissipate. They fade. It's just a fading. It's just like the mist on the sea that we've spoken of. They will fade. And this is why it is possible to be free. It is this fact, used, that will free. Anyone listening to this tape, I state this and I urge you to believe it. The freedom comes when you are able more and more and more to understand the great truth that it is your thoughts that imprison you, and you can use that very thought process to free you. Now, it is true, it is true that the last stages are not in your hands. I will grant you that. It is what you choose to call grace. It is what we would call the taking up of the force at the time of its rightness. By that we simply mean that at a certain stage of each entity's moving closer and closer to deeper and deeper love, deeper and deeper awareness, deeper total forgiveness, you see, the more you forgive, the more you love, the more positive thoughts you embody in your mind, the whole process of cooperating in this sense, it takes a long time and many people become discouraged and they quit. They say "Well, nothing's happening. You know, I'm not filled with love. I haven't had the Kundalini, my heart centre isn't open, my mind isn't ablaze with light. Here I am." You see, you understand that there's a certain amount of discouragement here. But what we have to understand is that it's taken eons of time to build this. And so please be patient with us as we work with you to release the power from these edifices of ego that you've constructed. So that's what we do from our side, that's to aid you. But you work, too. And it's your working on this that begins to allow these thought-forms surrounding you to dissipate. Now, I must be frank, if you have dissipated a thought-form or moved out of a thought-form, it moves out and stays on the earth plane. You see, you do not destroy that thought-form simply because it no longer cleaves to you. But it is no longer your problem. Literally, it is no longer your problem. And so the more of you who can rise up out of that unconscious movement, the... the lighter the whole situation becomes, the more that... that choose to rise up out of it, the less players there are on the stage, the less power there is going, you see. And then eventually our hope is that the whole wheel will slow down and dissolve.

Justin Moore:
Are you suggesting that... take a negative thought that one has overcome and so it does not... it does not have an affinity with the person who has overcome the problem, and it goes out. Now, as long as there is somebody else who's properly tuned to that type of negativity, that thought will be given... they can feed off of that person or...?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
They draw it. It's their... it's their doing. You see, nobody is forced to do anything. That's what karma is all about. Karma means you draw to you that which has its home with you. The reason it has its home with you is because you have harbored it. You've given it a house. You've given it a home. Over eons of time, various thought-forms have just taken root in you, and so therefore the play goes on. Now, as we've said over and over again, once you choose to reverse this process, other things will be drawn to you. But you see, there are only so many thoughts, you know. The negative thoughts that you have are not so unusual, you know. Human beings from time beginning have had a certain amount of negative thoughts. And although they may take a little different cast, a little different formation, basically they are derived from the same things, such as hates and... well, you know, the list. There's no need to go into all of these things. But given the basics, these are the great powers that keep this the wheel that we've talked about, the wheel of life, these are what keep the wheels of karma moving, it's the power, the tremendous power that's built up over the centuries. Over the eons of time with these great negative thought-forms. And they move the wheel. You see, it is their power that moves the wheel. And it is that memory field that you draw from. And that's why, if you want to, you can get into most any area of that mental field, but the point, sir, is why. You can go to the highest, the most lofty point on that wheel and you're still on the wheel. You are still dealing with a finite thought. You are still dealing with an ego projection. You are still dealing with a limitation. So our plea is for you to put all of these aside, to not try and go through each one of those thought-forms and release it, but merely to release the whole thing. Do you see? What we're striving for in our work is to give you the tools to release the entire wheel. Once you see that one piece of that wheel is illusion, one piece, you will see the whole wheel as the same. And at that moment, you begin to go... go free. You begin to free yourself. You see what I'm saying? You don't have to experience all of those thought-forms. You do not. One seen clearly as illusory will... will make you see the entire... and at that stage you can say, all right, I'm through, I'm through. I will not play anymore.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
And that's when you really begin to free up, as we would call it, to really free up your being, to allow the real transformation of light to enter in. But your thoughts don't die in that sense. You simply draw a thought that already exists to you. You see, if the human ego... if the human being only knew that they take great joy, ego joy, in thinking that they thought of new things, right?

Justin Moore:
Right.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
This is one of the great games on the ego plane. "I have created a new thought. I have created a new idea. I have done something entirely new that no one in the entire world has done before me." Well, sir, I doubt that. You see, it may be that in this particular cycle of civilization, on this world, that planet as it exists now, it seems to you that there are new thoughts. But if you could see from our view, we've said before, there are countless civilizations that have gone under into various destructions. They've thought all these thoughts, they've constructed all these things, they thought of all these great and wondrous contraptions. There is nothing that is new. And when a scientist plugs in to a certain band of energy which he is attuned to because that's where his attention is, that's where his desire is, where your desire is, that's where you plug in. If your desire is to to create a new scientific discovery and you really stay plugged in to that, eventually you will pull one to you and it will begin to take form in your mind, you will put it down. The world will say "Oh, how wonderful." And you will continue to believe that you are going through this progressing process, that you're new ever new, ever new life. The fact is, sir, from our perception, that's nonsense, because these are all old to us. These are all old thought-forms that you're simply moving into and experiencing and putting on paper in a new desk, in a new world, in a new situation, in a new civilization. And it looks very new to you. From our perception, it's just another one, you see? It's another rising up on the wheel. That part of it is coming back into manifestation. It's all there. It's all clustered around the tremendous I of this wheel, meaning the letter I. It's all there. The incrustations are all there and you're simply playing on a new strand. But they're not new. They're new to you because your views aren't lofty.

Justin Moore:
So there is nothing new under the sun after all.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
There is nothing new under the sun after all. There is nothing new. And you see, once you understand this, once a human really understands that creativity does not lie on the wheel, that creativity does not lie from coming from this convoluted inter-relatedness of one separate illusion to another, once they really realize this, then they will say "But I don't understand because I have this incredible drive to create within me. Then what's that all about?" And when they start asking that question, when they realize that their mind is not creating, you see, their mind is just feeding on old data, all right, may we assume this then, just as an assumption? We realize that nobody... well, we certain... certainly shouldn't say nobody, but very few people hearing this tape are really going to understand from experiential data what I'm talking about. But please give us yours and try and understand this. All right. Once the ego, once the whole entity says "There's nothing new here. This is all old. I'm not thinking these thoughts. They're coming to me from a force that has been going on and been built up for eons of time. And I'm simply participating in that. There's no newness in this." Once they finally understand that and this becomes old, and then they say "Well, what about this creative drive I have?" Then they will come to understand the great truth, which is that egos do not create. Egos project. Egos take in and project. They take in old and they project it out and try to make it new. But they do not create. Creation is ever new. A createdness is an ever new joy. It is an ever new experience. It is ever new, and it cannot be... true creation is only done by the divine. Anything that is done by anyone who is in connection, in a hookup with the divine power can be said to be creating. Do you see? And it carries the power of the divine creativeness. And it speaks for itself. And it stands on its own. And it is not a part of the same dismal same wheel that's moving countless eons through time. It's like moving through dirty water over and over and dipping in and coming out again and dipping in and coming out again. For my perception, it's a very dreary business.

Justin Moore:
I should say.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
And so we just say that surrounding this wheel is this incredible, pulsating, creative joy, dynamic living, dynamic life force that then changes everything, and you will know it. When you are in touch with that, you know it. Anyone who has touched that, and there are people that do, you know, I will not make any kind of ridiculous statement like all artists are in touch with it. This is absolute nonsense. Many artists are simply in touch with some very mundane ideas that have been floating around on the wheel and going around for eons. But occasionally the great ones come into it, you see, and they touch it and it overflows them and it flows through them and it goes out on the canvas, either in art form or in poetry or in song or in literature or in just creative living. You know, one of the most dynamic things in the world is to live creatively. And you cannot live creatively if you're still on this wheel of mundane, dark dreariness. I hope I've made this clear.

Justin Moore:
Well, perhaps we could talk about it again or...

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Well, if you have any question, I would be glad to deal with it.

Justin Moore:
Well, the concept of creativity that you've advanced... this is one of the things, of course, that I've written down back in my notes and never got around to asking, has been referred to in philosophy as the... well, I'm not sure what the technical expression is, but the channel notion of art that a great artist is one who can get out of the way and serve as a channel for a higher power.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
That is the only kind of anything that is worth doing. And you don't have to be an artist. I want to say this over and over and over again. The reason that so much attention has been paid to the artist is because he has then on a canvas, a proof of what he has gone through. All right. But quite aside from the artist and the writer and the poet, there are incredible numbers of people quietly moving about their daily round whose speech is imbued with this too, you know, speech can be imbued with this, this kind of channeling power that we're talking about. And their... and their actions can be imbued with this. And this is what we would hope for every person hearing this tape. This is the creative life. This is the life divine that we're talking about. And it can be reached. And once you get in touch... this is why we keep saying, please try and get in touch with this high energy. And the simple reason is that we love you, and we know from our own experience the incredible joy from living a life like that. Now, you don't know it because you're in this murky darkness, but we do see it, and we do say to you, we remind you, that's all we are. We're reminders. We're just reminders to come and say "Remember the way it has been for you. Remember the once was and make your journey back. Go back the way you came and we'll help you. And we'll take you and we'll move with you. And we will counsel you, and we will support you." This is what it's all about. And... so, we don't care if you make great paintings. That is not the issue. Actually, you know, the painting is not the issue at all. The issue is the channel, the openness to that, and what we really want rather than a whole civilization of great painters, what we really want is people who are living dynamically, who are living a creative life in the deepest sense of being in total touch with that power, and therefore that power absolutely lights up their mind and their heart and their speech, and they speak with wisdom and they move with surety. And that is what we're speaking of.

Justin Moore:
Very good. Could we go back now to the business about flying saucers?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Certainly.

Justin Moore:
Okay. Oh, well... I had another thought that I wanted to clear up before we pursued this any further. And that has to do with another notion. We're talking about creativity and being a channel. And we've also been talking about ideas and different wavelengths or bands of energy in the mental plane. And I had been under the impression in terms of great discoveries, having noted that, for example, the theory of evolution, the discovery of the telephone and you can... you can name others, they tend to be discovered by more than one person almost simultaneously, if not simultaneously. And my thinking on that had been that the time was right, you know, the time was right for a certain idea, and there were people who were attuned to it and were looking in that direction, and then it was presented to them. But if that is so, then does the... well, then the higher forces have to be cooperating with the communication of certain ideas of this nature. The inventions, even though I know they're not new, but I mean, when they come back into a cycle.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Well, first of all, we do our best to enter in whenever we can. You see, we're always waiting to help and we're always waiting to enter in anywhere on this wheel, whenever we're invited to do so, we will do it. Now, you're absolutely right about how great inventions come about. And this is why so many people are onto the same thing at the same time. But also, there's something else that I think we should discuss in connection with this. Now, I want you to understand clearly that mankind generally is the.. is the determiner of what will begin to manifest on the planet. Man decides... unconsciously decides what new game they wish to enter into, what way they wish their civilization to go. And once there are enough of them involved in this and are in agreement on how it's to move, then they must of course create the vehicles on the material plane in order to carry this out. And that's when they start reaching out for some way. For example, if communication is becoming important, if they have decided that they wish to move with greater ease around the planet, whatever they now decide as their new game, you see, to us, they are all the same. There's really no merit in one game over another. They're all the same, and we don't really care whether you invent a telephone or a microphone or a telescope or an atomic bomb. I mean, that's not really the problem for us. The problem is they're all mind constructs and have no reality. They're illusions in the sense that their... their meaning is greatly misunderstood. However you choose to form these things is not terribly important to us. All right. So man makes up their mind. They need greater communication, let us say. So then all over the planet, unconsciously, the movement is within. For those who know that this is their area of expertise, or where their interest lies or where their desire is, they will begin to reach out in their mind. And then of course it comes, you see. But first is the movement within the human body itself. I'm speaking of the collective body. The collective body decides that they want to move in some way.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
For example, if the human body finally decided that they... which I've suggested before, that the problem with food is too great, you know, there are too many people starving on your planet right now and you don't have the expertise to take care of this. I guess you've observed this. It's Not working. It's not working. All right. Now, there are various alternatives that the whole planet as a whole is working on, and they will come up with something. Now, they may come up with something like, all right, we'll refine the body system so it doesn't need as much food. All right. That's one alternative. Another alternative might be, which is what we're hoping for, which is greater cooperation so that there can be a greater distribution. Now, we don't care about food, particularly our interest is the more we can get people to cooperate to move into and become understanding and break down the barriers the greater ease for our position, for our job, which is to make you all see your oneness rather than your separateness. So the more barriers we can break down, the happier we are. So there are various alternatives. And as you see, the reason we cannot predict is how do we know how this incredible mind construct is going to move. So many things in there change its mind and you see, you aren't acting as one little entity moving on an earth plane. You see, you don't. You just don't. You know, you participate, you're co-participants in the whole group, the whole group mind, the whole human mind.

Justin Moore:
Let me ask you this: in keeping with the... this notion of creativity and invention, is it the case that there are overlords of wisdom who are in charge of certain areas in these wavelengths or bands of thought energy that control how they're used or directed?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Well, here again, we have the same problem. If we were allowed to total creative freedom on your planet, we would not create the things that you're creating. Our job is, when you have decided to create something, we try then to influence you to use it. You decide what to create. We do our best to oversee, to modify, to uplift, you see, to bring some kind of dynamic, creative, positive use for whatever monster you might have decided to create.

Justin Moore:
Yes...

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
We will not... you see, we will not stop you. That's your free will, sir. You have a free will to create all of these things that you create. Believe me, we would not spend our energy creating the incredible minutiae of detail in the physical plane. Have you any idea the amount of energy that goes into minute detail of minutiae of no importance?

Justin Moore:
Yeah, I know. It's incredible.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Incredible amount. If you could just think of all the factories throughout all the world that are creating little plastic nothings that last, what, two hours, three hours in the hands of a child and are destroyed and thrown into the trash? If you just... it is incredible to us. No, no, we are not in charge of that.

Justin Moore:
It seems to be getting worse, too. I mean, you see more and more things like... you've got a little electric goody that will cook your hotdogs. It won't do anything else, but it'll cook hot dogs. And there's something else that'll fry chicken won't do anything else but fry chicken. It's just it's just incredible.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Do you understand what it is, though? Do you see what the movement is? The movement is for greater and greater separateness. Even in so... that's a very good illustration. Even in so much as a cooking pot. As our friends to the south can tell us, there was a time when in their life that they can remember, when there was maybe one pot on the stove and that pot, everything went in it. They did everything in it. That's all that was needed, you see. And now, as you see, open up a cupboard and there are 20 pots and each one has a different function. One gives off steam, one fries eggs, one... oh I could go on and on. You see my point? Now, this is... this is a representative of the consciousness. This states what the conscious human mind is trying to do. And it is interesting to watch because if you watch the physical plane, you'll understand a lot about egos. What you are trying to do as a mass mind is to create as many separate little entities. You're still breaking down the oneness into more and more and more and more separateness. That's what you're doing. You see, this is why I say please don't be too uplifted in your thoughts about the human race going ever increasing and better formations of mind construct. Because from our perception, things are getting, if I may say, worse. You know, it is not necessary to have this tremendous minute detail and it is a outward manifestation of man's inner desire to continue to fragment his consciousness more and more and more and more.

Justin Moore:
This is an ego desire to experience separateness.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Over and over. As many separate things as you see will remind you. They're mirrors. They remind you "I'm separate. I'm separate. Look at all the separateness". You see. And the more you deal in separateness, in creating separate little things, the more convinced you are that the reality is true. It is indeed a separate universe that you're separate one from the other and so on all the way. And in the end, of course, being yes, I'm separate from God, and since I'm separate from God, then you know I'm important, I'm great, I have a will and so on. On it goes.

Justin Moore:
Okay, you've answered my question about invention, but of course I'm talking about atomic energy and why would the overlords allow it if it was going to be so terrible?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
They wouldn't.

Justin Moore:
Yeah, you've answered that.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
They wouldn't. But what they can do, once the game is going, what they can do is make every effort to impress on highly attuned, sensitive minds a positive use for that, and then hope with all good prayer and outreach, to hope that enough people will mobilize behind the positive idea and move for that. The construction is there. How it's to be used is really not decided. You see what I'm saying? The atomic creation is here. How it will be used is not decided. It changes moment to moment, day by day. Our hope is to impress from that angle. Once the creation is here, how best then to use it, how best to then water down the negativity and to swell and uplift the positive. How to do that. That's our job.

Justin Moore:
Is mankind generally going in the right direction with development of atomic energy for... as an alternative energy source.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Oh, yes! That's the answer. You see, there... all these things are there, sir, but they're not interested. They're interested in attack and survival. They're interested in the mechanics of war. They're interested in the missiles. That's what they're interested in. And that's where their energy's gone. But all they need do is turn just a little bit on the dial of awareness and they will begin to understand the tremendous potential. Then all they have to do is begin the outreach. This could have been taken care of long time ago.

Justin Moore:
Ah, so the apparent problems that we've had with atomic development as a peaceful energy source simply stem from the fact that man's not interested in that.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
If they were interested, believe me, sir, it would be manifest. And the minute enough people are interested, it will begin to be manifest. Now, this is... all right, now this moves into another area, which is... many people hearing this tape will have a struggle within their hearts because they will say, now, I am not drawn to participating in that kind of thing. Although they can see the great value in it, do you see? And to spend their time moving toward the creation of a positive energy structure, and overcoming the negative use of the atomic energy and so on? Now a question must come to all of you. You only have so much energy. You only have so much time in each one of your days. One of your linear days. You only have so much time. You must make a choice. And the choice then is how am I going to spend my energy? What am I going to focus on? Because what you focus on will begin to become a reality for you. Now, most people listening to this tape could participate in these kinds of things and benefit the planet, you see. Begin the outreach for greater sophisticated energy with the atomic structure and so on. This is available to man. It's there. It's waiting. It's been done before. There's nothing new about this. The atom has already been placed in the round around the wheel. It's there. And... but its answers and the goodness can be brought out.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
All right. But the question then is, what about you say, yourself and your wife and our friends? What then of your time? And I want to say this clearly: the highest aspiration that we ask for is for as many people as possible to not concern themselves with that, but to concern themselves with awaking from the illusion and participating in the reality. Now, there are many, many people, sir, on the earth plane who can deal with the kind of thing we're talking about with the atomic situation. Many. There are not as many who are capable of doing what you and your wife and our friends are capable of doing. And this is why we're spending so much time to convince you of the utter need and necessity for doing what you're doing and for the continued opening of your own awareness to the power that will begin to loosen the illusion until it dissolves before your eyes. So please do not have any feelings of guilt or any feelings of lack of caring for humanity because you're not participating in any of these other activities. To each... is called and each one is called to a different function. And this is not your function. Any of you. All right? I wanted to put that in because so many people feeling called to alleviate sickness and so forth get caught in that, and we'll spend a whole lifetime doing something that somebody else could have done better. You see, and not doing their own function because they saw it as... because they wanted to do it, therefore it can't be right.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
This is a terrible human weakness. May I speak to this a minute? It's very important, I think, and we see it so much, which is if it's something you want to do, you tend to think you shouldn't do it. You know, this is a very... human characteristic which we are very puzzled by as we observe this. Those things that rise up in you that you most want to do, and I'm not talking about debauchery, and that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to those things that just take over your mind and they just rise up in you and you just feel alive at the thought of doing it, whatever it is. Then the thought that follows is, "Oh, but if I want to do it, there must be something wrong with me pursuing that. After all, I should be working hard, I should be bored, I should be in trauma...". And all of the negative things come in, and I say to you nonsense! Nonsense. Nonsense. Nonsense. All of you hearing this tape, that is utter nonsense. Those things that you wish to do that rise up and encompass your mind and give you a feeling of life, divine, pulsating, rhythmic life, do it! And with our blessing. And literally with our blessing. I mean that as a promise: that the people that respond to that fountain, you see, and take the risk of allowing themselves to enjoy doing things in this life form, they have our blessing because they are moving into this creative space that we're speaking of, you see. They are the ones then... it's very difficult, you know, to become terribly uplifted when you're doing something that is dreary and a drudgery to you, and things can be dreary and a drudgery to you. And it simply usually means that you're in the wrong place, you're doing the wrong thing, you know. There are myriad games on the earth playing. Find one that... one game is very like another. You understand this?

I must keep saying it, from our perception, that the gentleman who dumps the trash is in no different position than the surgeon. You know, it's the same type of thing. Each one is doing something. Now, the difference is the quality. If a surgeon is doing it for the wrong motive, then we're not terribly impressed. If, on the other hand, he's doing it out of the right motive, then we are very grateful because a... a... a... a really fine surgeon can be a great boon in many ways, you see. Most of all, he can eliminate physical problems to an extent that the entity continues to have an opportunity to break out of the illusion. You see, it can only be done in the physical form. You see, you can only break the physical illusion in the physical form.

Justin Moore:
Why is that?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Because you've chosen it this way, you know. You've just chosen. Now realize it doesn't have to be on this earth plane. It doesn't have to be on the globe that you call Earth. There are other... other areas, other planets in your cosmology, other planets that will suffice. And in fact, many of you will not return to the earth. There will be other planets, but we won't go into that. That's all very cosmological and is not at all relevant to the moment. But suffice to say that that's one of the main jobs of a really, really enlightened surgeon, is to allow the entity a longer lifespan in hopes that maybe the whole experience of illness and so forth will bring on a new desire, a new movement, and therefore they will move closer to breaking out of the illusion, you see. So all these things can be used in the correct way. But again, back to my point, there is no difference in our perception between the surgeon and the babysitter and whatever. All right? So, find that which is joyful to you and do it. You see? Do it. You see. Whatever you decide to do, we will use that. All right? We will use whatever... just realize that whatever you decide, whatever game, I hope you won't be offended, any of you, by my choice of that, but whatever game you choose to participate in, we will use it. Just surrender the whole thing to us and we will use it. We will use it for your greatest awareness. So it doesn't matter what you do. If it brings you joy, if it brings you happiness, no matter what it is, do it. And one thing that everyone listening to this tape might benefit by - and this, of course, is very applicable to you and to your wife - is to find out those things that make you joyous, those things that you would like to do, and there will be many. There will not just be one, and then pick the one that is the most feasible, that's the most reasonable, but pay attention to that. You know, if more people on the earth plane did that, there wouldn't be these terrible situations of factories and the humdrum insurance salesman and these very dreary jobs, because people would say, no, I won't do it. And if they won't do it, then a whole new... a whole new job market, so to speak, will open up. You see, and this is one of the things that is happening. New so-called job markets are opening up on the earth plane for people who simply refuse to go along with a humdrum job that... or even not in... not a dynamic job, a...

Justin Moore:
Prestigious?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Right, or highly... involved job, difficult and so forth that they're not interested in.

Justin Moore:
So we've... you feel we've covered then...

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
I think so, and if there are any questions, as always, I realize that... that often time the questions come after when you've heard the tapes for all of you, and... and I greatly appreciate that. And because one thing is so much data comes into her and she has to make selections and things get by her as I ask her to... as I guide her, you see, I guide her consciousness into different areas, and sometimes we skip over something that could be very meaningful, but we don't always get back to that that we've skipped over.

Justin Moore:
Well, I don't know whether this is a sensitive thing to ask or not, but if it's true, and of course, I think it's at some level we've all recognized this, that there isn't that much difference between the auto mechanic and the surgeon, the types of machines that they're working on are a little different. Therefore, of course, from a mundane economic point of view, one has to face the very awkward question then why does one get paid 500 times what the other gets paid? And one gets into all kinds of interesting philosophical and political questions which lead to communism.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Well, that's all true. But you see...

Justin Moore:
Just a game, I know.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
So complicated. The entire human consciousness is so complicated. And the problem is, it's not rational. You make irrational leaps. What you've just said is a very good example of an irrational leap. There are two men performing two very necessary functions. One is compensated much more than the other. Now, why is this? It's the irrational leap in man's mind, and it is based on no data. For example, you could say "well, the surgeon, of course, is important because he saves lives." Then I would ask you, why is it that an insurance salesman who sells... or a salesman of cars, used cars perhaps even, makes more money than a teacher? The teacher is certainly serving mankind, it would seem, on a higher level than the used car salesman. So you see these are irrational leaps. There is no logic to it that goes to it. And I to tell you the truth, sir, it's beyond me.

Justin Moore:
Well, shall we go back to flying saucers?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Yes. I keep taking us away from that. Yes, please do.

Justin Moore:
Well, let's see. Let me ask you this: I get the impression from the Old Testament that some of the Old Testament prophets, not only saw flying saucers, but perhaps were even taken away by flying saucers.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
This is true.

Justin Moore:
Okay, so...

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Don't tell many people, though. They'll be very upset.

Justin Moore:
Okay. So then this contact, these contacts have been going on for centuries!

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Well, realize - and we will go into this in another time, but not right now - there is no such thing as time. There is no such thing as time! All right? We keep saying this in different forms, but you see, the other universes that impinge on yours are not in the space-time continuum, and they have been here in what you would call time, and they've been there in what you call your Old Testament times. Yes, certainly they have been. And a lot of the things that we're seeing, the wheels in the air, Ezekiel and so forth, and the... all of those visitations of beings and so on, a lot of them thought they were seeing angels, whereas actually what they were seeing, of course, were extraterrestrial beings who happened to be manifest at that time. And a lot of this, for example, Van Gogh, this is what he perceived often. He was able to perceive a lot of this and drew it as forms of light in the sky, and as stars. But actually, there were times of greater visitations and all this. It's unimportant. But I'm just saying that, yes, that's a true statement and that's all.

Justin Moore:
Well, then they've had a... well, it's hard to pursue this, but I don't think in terms of time.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
But fine, I think you should.

Justin Moore:
Well, in terms of time, if this has been going on, then one would have thought that extraterrestrial entities that had come here to study us for whatever purpose, whatever the project has as its objective, would have, since they're rather smart, would have figured out whatever it was that they wanted to know some time ago. Why do they keep coming back for the studying of us?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Well, that isn't really why they're here. You see, it's not... it's not that they want to understand you as a physical vehicle. Now, occasionally they need that data. But the real thrust of the problem is they need to keep tabs on what's happening. And that's why they're here. They see it best by being here,

Justin Moore:
Okay?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
By observing. You see, again, they tune into the mind field, m-i-n-d, the mind field of the planet. And this is how they get much of their data. Most of them make absolutely no effort to contact. And please understand that not everybody who decides to contact is on the highest level either. So, you know, as in every state of awareness, there are higher and lower states of understanding, and some of these are on a lower state and enjoy that. Do you see what I'm saying?

Justin Moore:
Enjoy which?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
The taking on of the physical vehicles into their craft and... but that isn't really the highest function of this at all. But then you are very aware that there are all kinds of high and low functions and it's no different there. Now, I sense that there will be a lot of people who will be very unhappy with this whole talk about spacecraft. I will end this topic by saying, please do not close your mind to it. Be aware that anything that hundreds of thousands of human beings have observed is not a fantasy. It is not a collective illusion. They are real. If you have tremendous resistance, it would be well for you to deal with this and to understand why you have this resistance. Do you feel invaded? What is it in you that is calling up this tremendous response of rejection of this idea, and use it as a learning device to understanding what fears are embodied within you? Because once you begin to understand your own fears along this line, then you can begin to deal with them on the rational human level, The fears of flying saucers and of extraterrestrial beings and so forth are symbolic. I mean, although those events are taking place, the fear is symbolic of something that you're afraid of. And I think that it behooves all humans who have this tremendous repulsion to even consider this as a possibility in light of all the data. You see, this is amazing to us that so much data could be given, photographs, absolute validated photographs, and yet people refuse to believe it. Why? They don't refuse to believe the photograph of a new car that Chrysler puts out in wherever. They don't have any trouble with this. Why? And this is the interesting question. Find out within yourself what that area of fear is and begin to work with it. And it will reveal its secrets to you, and you'll learn a lot about yourself because it stands as a representative of fears of the unknown. And once you realize that you're afraid of the unknown, you will understand why it is you're so fearful of cosmic awareness. Human beings are afraid of cosmic awareness, sir. One reason that they do not go into the higher states of consciousness is because they're afraid.

Justin Moore:
The egos... and losing his identity are one?

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
Well, that's part of it, but there's a deeper cause. And the deeper cause is a very deep feeling of guilt. There's a feeling of guilt for having moved away from the God source. And once you understand this, you will begin to see that there is nothing to feel guilty about and you will begin to loosen that tremendous fear. As long as you fear, you will not submerge yourself in that One. You will not choose to submerge yourself in something that terrifies you. You will not choose to become one and surrender to a force that you believe is angry at you. There is one statement made on the Earth plane that is the most difficult for us to overcome, and it is the statement that God is angry. God is not capable of anger. That is a human emotion. There is no anger in God. Any God-like manifestations that you have made and projected onto a God are strictly your own and are used for your own devices, and have nothing to do with that which is really God. But it is very important - and I think we should deal with this again if you would put this down - I think this is very important to understand deeply the whole subject of guilt and how it operates in humans, because people are guilty one between another. You see one person or another. There's guilt there. But this is only a mirror of the greater guilt. And it is this greater guilt that stands as the real obstacle to surrender to the God force.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
So I feel we should close now because I think she's getting tired.

Justin Moore:
Ah, very good.

Bartholomew / Mary-Margaret Moore:
But again, I thank you very much for your efforts on our behalf, sir. Grateful and farewell to our friends and... good night.